21, '13, 5:10 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: August 31, 2008
Posts: 8,524
Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
=gnosisofthomas;10267515]My church doesn't recognize anyone's
authority to command anyone else.. Our clergy is there to serve and to
offer the sacraments to those who sincerely wish to receive them. There
are no conditions put on that. Only God has real authority.
Now as a member of the clergy obviously I have to respect my bishop's
role and the hierarchy of the church. But even so, if he "commanded" me
to do something that violated my conscience, I wouldn't do it. I can't
see that ever being an issue though.
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So MY friend 
Taking you at your word. God is in charge????
Please use this site for fast and easy look up:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/parallel-bible
IN the order given:
Mt. 10:1-8
Mt. 16:15-19
Mt. 18:18
Jn.14:16-17 completed in John 20:21-22
Jn. 17:15-19
Jn. 20;19-23
Mk. 14:16-17
Mt. 28: 18-20
Acts.20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”
Romans 13: 2 “Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God
has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”
John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must
bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one
flock, one shepherd”
Ps.127:1 “Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain”
NOTE Please that each and everyone of the above specify ONLY the
Apostles from whom by absolute necessity the Key's are passed on to
Christ Own Catholic Church.
Sincere thanks for your post.
May Our od continue to guide and bless you,
Pat/PJM
__________________
 PJM 
http://working4christ2.wordpress.com
Can we partake of God's GLORY and NOT partake of His PASSION? NO!
A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
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Jan 22, '13, 7:58 am
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Join Date: July 26, 2011
Posts: 8,180
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnosisofthomas
My church doesn't recognize anyone's
authority to command anyone else.. Our clergy is there to serve and to
offer the sacraments to those who sincerely wish to receive them. There
are no conditions put on that. Only God has real authority.
Now as a member of the clergy obviously I have to respect my bishop's
role and the hierarchy of the church. But even so, if he "commanded" me
to do something that violated my conscience, I wouldn't do it. I can't
see that ever being an issue though.
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Gnostic one,
God has real authority, Jesus was God, and He built a Church that is His
authority. Your Ecclessia Gnostica is not founded on Christ and the
Apostles and clearly as you state has no authority over anyone and that
is why you and this group preach another gospel.
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Jan 22, '13, 11:29 am
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Trial Membership
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Join Date: January 3, 2013
Posts: 9
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
As a practicing Catholic, interested in inter and intrafaith dialogue
I find the position of GnosisofThomas and his stance on the authority
in his church not too dissimilar from our own and I hope that he or she
can correct me on this.
According to the way I'm reading his church's catechism:
"[The] Gnostic Church is holy because her members aspire to a wholeness
and integrity of life; she is also universal, or catholic, because she
teaches and practices the faith of Gnosis which is not bound to time or
to place... she [the Gnostic Church] is apostolic because her authority
proceeds from the apostles and their successors." 144
and in appendix B:
Q: Does the Gnostic world view uphold or rebel against worldly "establishments"?
It does neither, for its attitude is well stated in one of its
scriptures: "Do not put your trust in the potentates, rulers, and the
rebels of this world, for their authority passes away and comes to an
end and their works are as naught."
Knowing that they have an episcopate and clergy, I would imagine that
they would act as moral and spiritual guides, but for the most part
their own perceptions of authority rest in their experiential knowledge
of their idea of God.
Granted, again, as churches who are separated from Rome there are bound
to be some deficencies from our perspective but I think their alternate
approach is something we might be able to learn and grow from in
understanding and dialogue.
Also, CopticChristian, I've seen a few of your posts and am interested
in learning why you can't accept them as being brothers and sisters on
account that they have different gospels? The Ethiopian Church and a
number of other churches have different canons of apocrypha and yet that
doesn't stop or prevent them from being part of the Church of the
Apostles, even if they don't accept the primacy of the throne of Saint
Peter.
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Jan 22, '13, 11:35 am
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Suspended
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Join Date: July 26, 2011
Posts: 8,180
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevalier IX
As a practicing Catholic, interested
in inter and intrafaith dialogue I find the position of GnosisofThomas
and his stance on the authority in his church not too dissimilar from
our own and I hope that he or she can correct me on this.
According to the way I'm reading his church's catechism:
"[The] Gnostic Church is holy because her members aspire to a wholeness
and integrity of life; she is also universal, or catholic, because she
teaches and practices the faith of Gnosis which is not bound to time or
to place... she [the Gnostic Church] is apostolic because her authority
proceeds from the apostles and their successors." 144
and in appendix B:
Q: Does the Gnostic world view uphold or rebel against worldly "establishments"?
It does neither, for its attitude is well stated in one of its
scriptures: "Do not put your trust in the potentates, rulers, and the
rebels of this world, for their authority passes away and comes to an
end and their works are as naught."
Knowing that they have an episcopate and clergy, I would imagine that
they would act as moral and spiritual guides, but for the most part
their own perceptions of authority rest in their experiential knowledge
of their idea of God.
Granted, again, as churches who are separated from Rome there are bound
to be some deficencies from our perspective but I think their alternate
approach is something we might be able to learn and grow from in
understanding and dialogue.
Also, CopticChristian, I've seen a few of your posts and am interested
in learning why you can't accept them as being brothers and sisters on
account that they have different gospels? The Ethiopian Church and a
number of other churches have different canons of apocrypha and yet that
doesn't stop or prevent them from being part of the Church of the
Apostles, even if they don't accept the primacy of the throne of Saint
Peter.
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Chevalier,
You are wrong, our Church is Holy because it is the Body of Christ and our God is Holy. Ecclesia Gnostica is not Holy.
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Jan 22, '13, 11:46 am
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Trial Membership
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Join Date: January 3, 2013
Posts: 9
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopticChristian
Chevalier,
You are wrong, our Church is Holy because it is the Body of Christ and our God is Holy. Ecclesia Gnostica is not Holy.
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CopticChristian, you're using buzzwords that don't have any
meaning without providing ample context. Ecclesia Gnostica may not be in
communion with Rome, but that doesn't make them not holy anymore than
Jewish synagogues or Islamic mosqes aren't places of holiness for
adherents of those faiths which we are likewise called to respect vide Domini Iesus, which I'm sure you've read and states:
"“The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these
religions. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the
precepts and teachings, which, although differing in many ways from her
own teaching, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that truth which
enlightens all men”. Continuing in this line of thought, the Church's
proclamation of Jesus Christ, “the way, the truth, and the life” (Jn
14:6), today also makes use of the practice of inter-religious dialogue.
Such dialogue certainly does not replace, but rather accompanies the
missio ad gentes, directed toward that “mystery of unity”, from which
“it follows that all men and women who are saved share, though
differently, in the same mystery of salvation in Jesus Christ through
his Spirit”. Inter-religious dialogue, which is part of the Church's
evangelizing mission,6 requires an attitude of understanding and a
relationship of mutual knowledge and reciprocal enrichment, in obedience
to the truth and with respect for freedom."
While we ourselves may find some elements of their faith deficient, we
can't lose sight of what is good and true within them in relation to us.
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Jan 22, '13, 12:28 pm
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Suspended
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Join Date: July 26, 2011
Posts: 8,180
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevalier IX
CopticChristian, you're using
buzzwords that don't have any meaning without providing ample context.
Ecclesia Gnostica may not be in communion with Rome, but that doesn't
make them not holy anymore than Jewish synagogues or Islamic mosqes
aren't places of holiness for adherents of those faiths which we are
likewise called to respect vide Domini Iesus, which I'm sure you've read and states:
"“The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these
religions. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the
precepts and teachings, which, although differing in many ways from her
own teaching, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that truth which
enlightens all men”. Continuing in this line of thought, the Church's
proclamation of Jesus Christ, “the way, the truth, and the life” (Jn
14:6), today also makes use of the practice of inter-religious dialogue.
Such dialogue certainly does not replace, but rather accompanies the
missio ad gentes, directed toward that “mystery of unity”, from which
“it follows that all men and women who are saved share, though
differently, in the same mystery of salvation in Jesus Christ through
his Spirit”. Inter-religious dialogue, which is part of the Church's
evangelizing mission,6 requires an attitude of understanding and a
relationship of mutual knowledge and reciprocal enrichment, in obedience
to the truth and with respect for freedom."
While we ourselves may find some elements of their faith deficient, we
can't lose sight of what is good and true within them in relation to us. |
Chevalier,
When you recite the Creed We believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, what is it you believe that you are professing?
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Jan 22, '13, 12:56 pm
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Trial Membership
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Join Date: January 3, 2013
Posts: 9
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopticChristian
Chevalier,
When you recite the Creed We believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, what is it you believe that you are professing?
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When I say the Nicene Creed and state, "I believe in One Holy
Catholic and Apostolic Church" I affirm the the apostolic faith
concerning the Trinity as confessed by the second ecumenical council at
Constantinople. That said, not all religions bound by that having either
not entered into the covenant with Christ and His Church or otherwise
choosing to not become part of the Catholic Church or remain with the
latter for a number of reasons peculiar to their own understanding of
Scripture and inspiration of Spirit.
For this reason, it we must remain open to other means by which others
may apprehend God in their own ways without forcing our own world-view
upon them as that would be and offence to their particular integrity as
well as Christian charity. The Catholic Church exists as an umbrella of
different communities that may help provide for the spiritual attainment
of humanity by whose short-commings it is difficult to attain solely by
her or his self.
The Ecclesia Gnostica, though not in communion with Rome, professes in
its own peculiar way to be part of the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic
Church" having within itself the same qualia as valid though ilicit. In
spite of the ilicit nature of their sacraments, that does not in any way
affect their holiness and to argue otherwise would be to raise the
question of whether or not we ourselves are Catholic for denying their
efficacy in helping them in their approach toward holiness.
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Jan 22, '13, 2:00 pm
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Suspended
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Join Date: July 26, 2011
Posts: 8,180
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevalier IX
When I say the Nicene Creed and
state, "I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" I affirm
the the apostolic faith concerning the Trinity as confessed by the
second ecumenical council at Constantinople. That said, not all
religions bound by that having either not entered into the covenant with
Christ and His Church or otherwise choosing to not become part of the
Catholic Church or remain with the latter for a number of reasons
peculiar to their own understanding of Scripture and inspiration of
Spirit.
For this reason, it we must remain open to other means by which others
may apprehend God in their own ways without forcing our own world-view
upon them as that would be and offence to their particular integrity as
well as Christian charity. The Catholic Church exists as an umbrella of
different communities that may help provide for the spiritual attainment
of humanity by whose short-commings it is difficult to attain solely by
her or his self.
The Ecclesia Gnostica, though not in communion with Rome, professes in
its own peculiar way to be part of the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic
Church" having within itself the same qualia as valid though ilicit. In
spite of the ilicit nature of their sacraments, that does not in any way
affect their holiness and to argue otherwise would be to raise the
question of whether or not we ourselves are Catholic for denying their
efficacy in helping them in their approach toward holiness.
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Chevalier,
Your understanding would include Mormons, Jehovah Witness and others...is this your position?
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Jan 22, '13, 2:37 pm
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Trial Membership
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Join Date: January 3, 2013
Posts: 9
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
I'm unsure what you're talking about CopticChristian. Could you please elaborate?
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Jan 22, '13, 2:54 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: June 23, 2004
Posts: 2,896
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrtrent
I've never thought of it in terms of a
church's authority to "command" (and maybe I'm misunderstanding the
intent of the question), but a person makes certain commitments when he
joins a church: exemplifying a godly lifestyle in the community,
exercising one’s spiritual gifts in diligent service, contributing
financially to the work of the ministry, giving and receiving
admonishment with meekness and in love, and faithfully participating in
corporate worship. The authority for these expectations is scripture,
and several Biblical references are provided in the short article linked
to below.
http://www.gty.org/resources/distinc...rch-membership |
Authority as this article demonstrates, comes from being appointed by a superior. There are two ways this can come about:
by either being commissioned by a superior authority (since no one can
confer that which he does not possess himself) who himself had a
legitimate claim to his office, or by being called directly by God. If
the latter, his mission must be accompanied by miracles, signs and
wonders as proof of his Divine vocation. Even Jesus submitted to this
proof-test:
"If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true; there is another
who bears witness to me, and I know that the testimony which he bears
to me is true. You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth.
Not that the testimony which I receive is from man; but I say this that
you may be saved. He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were
willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But the testimony which I
have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has
granted me to accomplish, these very works which I am doing, bear me
witness that the Father has sent me." (John 5:31-36)
__________________
Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic!
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Jan 22, '13, 3:04 pm
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Suspended
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Join Date: July 26, 2011
Posts: 8,180
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopticChristian
Chevalier,
Your understanding would include Mormons, Jehovah Witness and others...is this your position?
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Chevalier,
Earlier you said..
Quote:
It does neither, for its attitude is well stated in one of its
scriptures: "Do not put your trust in the potentates, rulers, and the
rebels of this world, for their authority passes away and comes to an
end and their works are as naught."
Knowing that they have an episcopate and clergy, I would imagine that
they would act as moral and spiritual guides, but for the most part
their own perceptions of authority rest in their experiential knowledge
of their idea of God.
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you suggest that they have Scripture, and these writings are
declared not to be Scripture. They are writings but not inspired or of
God. So do you believe that they have Scripture? Even if they have a
semblance of the OHCAC does not equate to an ecclesial community.
How would you view the Ecclesia Gnostica if they accepted practicing homsexuals in their community?
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Jan 22, '13, 3:22 pm
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Junior Member
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Join Date: March 23, 2012
Posts: 225
Religion: Gnostic Christian
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopticChristian
Earlier you said..
Quote:
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It does neither, for its attitude is well stated in one of its
scriptures: "Do not put your trust in the potentates, rulers, and the
rebels of this world, for their authority passes away and comes to an
end and their works are as naught."
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you suggest that they have Scripture, and these writings are
declared not to be Scripture. They are writings but not inspired or of
God. So do you believe that they have Scripture? Even if they have a
semblance of the OHCAC does not equate to an ecclesial community. |
You do realise, don't you, that that quote actually comes from one
of the Psalms? Or has the OHCAC rejected that book as scripture?
__________________
"There
is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is
neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus." -Galatians 3:28
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Jan 22, '13, 3:26 pm
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Trial Membership
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Join Date: January 3, 2013
Posts: 9
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
I was simply citing their perspective of authority from the perspective of their catechism.
Regarding their episcopate, they seem to either have or believe they
have apostolic succession that exists in the same continuity as our own
and that their bishops and clergy function in a similar role as ours.
Until their succession is proven or disproven, I'm willing to take them
at their word as this type of thing is not unprecedented.
They do have scripture of their own, to deny that would be a gross
misunderstanding however the Church has decided in her wisdom not to
count those particular scriptures amongst the canon as formulated in
canon 825 of the Code "INSTRUMENTS OF SOCIAL COMMUNICATION AND BOOKS IN
PARTICULAR " which states:
"Books of the sacred scriptures cannot be published unless the Apostolic
See or the conference of bishops has approved them. For the publication
of their translations into the vernacular, it is also required that
they be approved by the same authority and provided with necessary and
sufficient annotations."
Their scripture may not be sacred to us or have the same meaning,
however from a scholarly perspective, that doesn't change the fact that
it is still scripture - it's just not ours. I personally have a deep
interest in Biblical scholarship and find early apocryphal and
pseudoepigraphica interesting for what it tells us of the early
Christian communities.
As for having members of their community who may be lesbian or gay, I
don't see anything particularly wrong with that - it doesn't infringe on
me and my wife or child's rights or liberties and of our lesbian and
gay friends, I think they're great people and deserving of respect.
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Mar 5, '13, 3:18 pm
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Trial Membership
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Join Date: March 5, 2013
Posts: 3
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevalier IX
I was simply citing their perspective of authority from the perspective of their catechism.
Regarding their episcopate, they seem to either have or believe they
have apostolic succession that exists in the same continuity as our own
and that their bishops and clergy function in a similar role as ours.
Until their succession is proven or disproven, I'm willing to take them
at their word as this type of thing is not unprecedented.
They do have scripture of their own, to deny that would be a gross
misunderstanding however the Church has decided in her wisdom not to
count those particular scriptures amongst the canon as formulated in
canon 825 of the Code "INSTRUMENTS OF SOCIAL COMMUNICATION AND BOOKS IN
PARTICULAR " which states:
"Books of the sacred scriptures cannot be published unless the Apostolic
See or the conference of bishops has approved them. For the publication
of their translations into the vernacular, it is also required that
they be approved by the same authority and provided with necessary and
sufficient annotations."
Their scripture may not be sacred to us or have the same meaning,
however from a scholarly perspective, that doesn't change the fact that
it is still scripture - it's just not ours. I personally have a deep
interest in Biblical scholarship and find early apocryphal and
pseudoepigraphica interesting for what it tells us of the early
Christian communities.
As for having members of their community who may be lesbian or gay, I
don't see anything particularly wrong with that - it doesn't infringe on
me and my wife or child's rights or liberties and of our lesbian and
gay friends, I think they're great people and deserving of respect.
|
that was an interesting dialog -- a bit over my head-- but -- informative--
Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think
of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has
distributed to each of you.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
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Mar 5, '13, 9:06 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: January 31, 2007
Posts: 6,023
Religion: Quaker
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM
To what degree does your church have authority to command you?
What is the source of this authority?
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As a Friend, I have placed myself under "the care of the Meeting".
I have agreed to follow the disipline of the Meeting. It is a mutual
decision Friends make to one another....however, I am bound by
conscience over and above what any Meeting may wish. When ever
differences arise between an individual Friend and the Monthly Meeting, a
"Clearness Committee" is formed to seek mutal understanding and
resolution directed by prayerful consideration of all parties.
Among Friends, "majority" does not rule...we govern ourselves by
consensus....each of us had an equal voice.....and sometimes the
minority voice among us is the one that hears God speak the
clearest.....and after much prayer, meditation, discussion it is not
unheard of for the Meeting as a whole to embrace the minority position
after a time of "Clearness".
These decisions can take months...and in some case years to come to consensus.
We share equally as each of us bears the Light Within.
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21, '13, 5:10 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: August 31, 2008
Posts: 8,524
Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
=gnosisofthomas;10267515]My church doesn't recognize anyone's
authority to command anyone else.. Our clergy is there to serve and to
offer the sacraments to those who sincerely wish to receive them. There
are no conditions put on that. Only God has real authority.
Now as a member of the clergy obviously I have to respect my bishop's
role and the hierarchy of the church. But even so, if he "commanded" me
to do something that violated my conscience, I wouldn't do it. I can't
see that ever being an issue though.
|
So MY friend
Taking you at your word. God is in charge????
Please use this site for fast and easy look up:
http://www.biblestudytools.com/parallel-bible
IN the order given:
Mt. 10:1-8
Mt. 16:15-19
Mt. 18:18
Jn.14:16-17 completed in John 20:21-22
Jn. 17:15-19
Jn. 20;19-23
Mk. 14:16-17
Mt. 28: 18-20
Acts.20: 28 “Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God [SINGULAR] which he obtained with the blood of his own Son.”
Romans 13: 2 “Therefore he who resists the authorities resists what God
has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment.”
John.10: 16 “And I have other sheep, that are not of this fold; I must
bring them also, and they will heed my voice. So there shall be one
flock, one shepherd”
Ps.127:1 “Unless the LORD builds the house, those who build it labor in vain.
Unless the LORD watches over the city, the watchman stays awake in vain”
NOTE Please that each and everyone of the above specify ONLY the
Apostles from whom by absolute necessity the Key's are passed on to
Christ Own Catholic Church.
Sincere thanks for your post.
May Our od continue to guide and bless you,
Pat/PJM
__________________
PJM
http://working4christ2.wordpress.com
Can we partake of God's GLORY and NOT partake of His PASSION? NO!
A.B. Fulton Sheen: "The truth is the truth even if nobody believes it, and a lie is still a lie, even if everybody believes it."
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Jan 22, '13, 7:58 am
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Suspended
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Join Date: July 26, 2011
Posts: 8,180
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by gnosisofthomas
My church doesn't recognize anyone's
authority to command anyone else.. Our clergy is there to serve and to
offer the sacraments to those who sincerely wish to receive them. There
are no conditions put on that. Only God has real authority.
Now as a member of the clergy obviously I have to respect my bishop's
role and the hierarchy of the church. But even so, if he "commanded" me
to do something that violated my conscience, I wouldn't do it. I can't
see that ever being an issue though.
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Gnostic one,
God has real authority, Jesus was God, and He built a Church that is His
authority. Your Ecclessia Gnostica is not founded on Christ and the
Apostles and clearly as you state has no authority over anyone and that
is why you and this group preach another gospel.
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Jan 22, '13, 11:29 am
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Trial Membership
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Join Date: January 3, 2013
Posts: 9
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
As a practicing Catholic, interested in inter and intrafaith dialogue
I find the position of GnosisofThomas and his stance on the authority
in his church not too dissimilar from our own and I hope that he or she
can correct me on this.
According to the way I'm reading his church's catechism:
"[The] Gnostic Church is holy because her members aspire to a wholeness
and integrity of life; she is also universal, or catholic, because she
teaches and practices the faith of Gnosis which is not bound to time or
to place... she [the Gnostic Church] is apostolic because her authority
proceeds from the apostles and their successors." 144
and in appendix B:
Q: Does the Gnostic world view uphold or rebel against worldly "establishments"?
It does neither, for its attitude is well stated in one of its
scriptures: "Do not put your trust in the potentates, rulers, and the
rebels of this world, for their authority passes away and comes to an
end and their works are as naught."
Knowing that they have an episcopate and clergy, I would imagine that
they would act as moral and spiritual guides, but for the most part
their own perceptions of authority rest in their experiential knowledge
of their idea of God.
Granted, again, as churches who are separated from Rome there are bound
to be some deficencies from our perspective but I think their alternate
approach is something we might be able to learn and grow from in
understanding and dialogue.
Also, CopticChristian, I've seen a few of your posts and am interested
in learning why you can't accept them as being brothers and sisters on
account that they have different gospels? The Ethiopian Church and a
number of other churches have different canons of apocrypha and yet that
doesn't stop or prevent them from being part of the Church of the
Apostles, even if they don't accept the primacy of the throne of Saint
Peter.
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Jan 22, '13, 11:35 am
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Join Date: July 26, 2011
Posts: 8,180
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevalier IX
As a practicing Catholic, interested
in inter and intrafaith dialogue I find the position of GnosisofThomas
and his stance on the authority in his church not too dissimilar from
our own and I hope that he or she can correct me on this.
According to the way I'm reading his church's catechism:
"[The] Gnostic Church is holy because her members aspire to a wholeness
and integrity of life; she is also universal, or catholic, because she
teaches and practices the faith of Gnosis which is not bound to time or
to place... she [the Gnostic Church] is apostolic because her authority
proceeds from the apostles and their successors." 144
and in appendix B:
Q: Does the Gnostic world view uphold or rebel against worldly "establishments"?
It does neither, for its attitude is well stated in one of its
scriptures: "Do not put your trust in the potentates, rulers, and the
rebels of this world, for their authority passes away and comes to an
end and their works are as naught."
Knowing that they have an episcopate and clergy, I would imagine that
they would act as moral and spiritual guides, but for the most part
their own perceptions of authority rest in their experiential knowledge
of their idea of God.
Granted, again, as churches who are separated from Rome there are bound
to be some deficencies from our perspective but I think their alternate
approach is something we might be able to learn and grow from in
understanding and dialogue.
Also, CopticChristian, I've seen a few of your posts and am interested
in learning why you can't accept them as being brothers and sisters on
account that they have different gospels? The Ethiopian Church and a
number of other churches have different canons of apocrypha and yet that
doesn't stop or prevent them from being part of the Church of the
Apostles, even if they don't accept the primacy of the throne of Saint
Peter.
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Chevalier,
You are wrong, our Church is Holy because it is the Body of Christ and our God is Holy. Ecclesia Gnostica is not Holy.
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Jan 22, '13, 11:46 am
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Trial Membership
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Join Date: January 3, 2013
Posts: 9
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopticChristian
Chevalier,
You are wrong, our Church is Holy because it is the Body of Christ and our God is Holy. Ecclesia Gnostica is not Holy.
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CopticChristian, you're using buzzwords that don't have any
meaning without providing ample context. Ecclesia Gnostica may not be in
communion with Rome, but that doesn't make them not holy anymore than
Jewish synagogues or Islamic mosqes aren't places of holiness for
adherents of those faiths which we are likewise called to respect vide Domini Iesus, which I'm sure you've read and states:
"“The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these
religions. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the
precepts and teachings, which, although differing in many ways from her
own teaching, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that truth which
enlightens all men”. Continuing in this line of thought, the Church's
proclamation of Jesus Christ, “the way, the truth, and the life” (Jn
14:6), today also makes use of the practice of inter-religious dialogue.
Such dialogue certainly does not replace, but rather accompanies the
missio ad gentes, directed toward that “mystery of unity”, from which
“it follows that all men and women who are saved share, though
differently, in the same mystery of salvation in Jesus Christ through
his Spirit”. Inter-religious dialogue, which is part of the Church's
evangelizing mission,6 requires an attitude of understanding and a
relationship of mutual knowledge and reciprocal enrichment, in obedience
to the truth and with respect for freedom."
While we ourselves may find some elements of their faith deficient, we
can't lose sight of what is good and true within them in relation to us.
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Jan 22, '13, 12:28 pm
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Suspended
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Join Date: July 26, 2011
Posts: 8,180
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevalier IX
CopticChristian, you're using
buzzwords that don't have any meaning without providing ample context.
Ecclesia Gnostica may not be in communion with Rome, but that doesn't
make them not holy anymore than Jewish synagogues or Islamic mosqes
aren't places of holiness for adherents of those faiths which we are
likewise called to respect vide Domini Iesus, which I'm sure you've read and states:
"“The Catholic Church rejects nothing of what is true and holy in these
religions. She has a high regard for the manner of life and conduct, the
precepts and teachings, which, although differing in many ways from her
own teaching, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that truth which
enlightens all men”. Continuing in this line of thought, the Church's
proclamation of Jesus Christ, “the way, the truth, and the life” (Jn
14:6), today also makes use of the practice of inter-religious dialogue.
Such dialogue certainly does not replace, but rather accompanies the
missio ad gentes, directed toward that “mystery of unity”, from which
“it follows that all men and women who are saved share, though
differently, in the same mystery of salvation in Jesus Christ through
his Spirit”. Inter-religious dialogue, which is part of the Church's
evangelizing mission,6 requires an attitude of understanding and a
relationship of mutual knowledge and reciprocal enrichment, in obedience
to the truth and with respect for freedom."
While we ourselves may find some elements of their faith deficient, we
can't lose sight of what is good and true within them in relation to us. |
Chevalier,
When you recite the Creed We believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, what is it you believe that you are professing?
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Jan 22, '13, 12:56 pm
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Trial Membership
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Join Date: January 3, 2013
Posts: 9
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopticChristian
Chevalier,
When you recite the Creed We believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, what is it you believe that you are professing?
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When I say the Nicene Creed and state, "I believe in One Holy
Catholic and Apostolic Church" I affirm the the apostolic faith
concerning the Trinity as confessed by the second ecumenical council at
Constantinople. That said, not all religions bound by that having either
not entered into the covenant with Christ and His Church or otherwise
choosing to not become part of the Catholic Church or remain with the
latter for a number of reasons peculiar to their own understanding of
Scripture and inspiration of Spirit.
For this reason, it we must remain open to other means by which others
may apprehend God in their own ways without forcing our own world-view
upon them as that would be and offence to their particular integrity as
well as Christian charity. The Catholic Church exists as an umbrella of
different communities that may help provide for the spiritual attainment
of humanity by whose short-commings it is difficult to attain solely by
her or his self.
The Ecclesia Gnostica, though not in communion with Rome, professes in
its own peculiar way to be part of the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic
Church" having within itself the same qualia as valid though ilicit. In
spite of the ilicit nature of their sacraments, that does not in any way
affect their holiness and to argue otherwise would be to raise the
question of whether or not we ourselves are Catholic for denying their
efficacy in helping them in their approach toward holiness.
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Jan 22, '13, 2:00 pm
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Join Date: July 26, 2011
Posts: 8,180
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevalier IX
When I say the Nicene Creed and
state, "I believe in One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" I affirm
the the apostolic faith concerning the Trinity as confessed by the
second ecumenical council at Constantinople. That said, not all
religions bound by that having either not entered into the covenant with
Christ and His Church or otherwise choosing to not become part of the
Catholic Church or remain with the latter for a number of reasons
peculiar to their own understanding of Scripture and inspiration of
Spirit.
For this reason, it we must remain open to other means by which others
may apprehend God in their own ways without forcing our own world-view
upon them as that would be and offence to their particular integrity as
well as Christian charity. The Catholic Church exists as an umbrella of
different communities that may help provide for the spiritual attainment
of humanity by whose short-commings it is difficult to attain solely by
her or his self.
The Ecclesia Gnostica, though not in communion with Rome, professes in
its own peculiar way to be part of the "One Holy Catholic and Apostolic
Church" having within itself the same qualia as valid though ilicit. In
spite of the ilicit nature of their sacraments, that does not in any way
affect their holiness and to argue otherwise would be to raise the
question of whether or not we ourselves are Catholic for denying their
efficacy in helping them in their approach toward holiness.
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Chevalier,
Your understanding would include Mormons, Jehovah Witness and others...is this your position?
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Jan 22, '13, 2:37 pm
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Trial Membership
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Join Date: January 3, 2013
Posts: 9
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
I'm unsure what you're talking about CopticChristian. Could you please elaborate?
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Jan 22, '13, 2:54 pm
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Regular Member
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Join Date: June 23, 2004
Posts: 2,896
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrtrent
I've never thought of it in terms of a
church's authority to "command" (and maybe I'm misunderstanding the
intent of the question), but a person makes certain commitments when he
joins a church: exemplifying a godly lifestyle in the community,
exercising one’s spiritual gifts in diligent service, contributing
financially to the work of the ministry, giving and receiving
admonishment with meekness and in love, and faithfully participating in
corporate worship. The authority for these expectations is scripture,
and several Biblical references are provided in the short article linked
to below.
http://www.gty.org/resources/distinc...rch-membership |
Authority as this article demonstrates, comes from being appointed by a superior. There are two ways this can come about:
by either being commissioned by a superior authority (since no one can
confer that which he does not possess himself) who himself had a
legitimate claim to his office, or by being called directly by God. If
the latter, his mission must be accompanied by miracles, signs and
wonders as proof of his Divine vocation. Even Jesus submitted to this
proof-test:
"If I bear witness to myself, my testimony is not true; there is another
who bears witness to me, and I know that the testimony which he bears
to me is true. You sent to John, and he has borne witness to the truth.
Not that the testimony which I receive is from man; but I say this that
you may be saved. He was a burning and shining lamp, and you were
willing to rejoice for a while in his light. But the testimony which I
have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father has
granted me to accomplish, these very works which I am doing, bear me
witness that the Father has sent me." (John 5:31-36)
__________________
Protons have mass? I didn't even know they were Catholic!
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Jan 22, '13, 3:04 pm
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Join Date: July 26, 2011
Posts: 8,180
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopticChristian
Chevalier,
Your understanding would include Mormons, Jehovah Witness and others...is this your position?
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Chevalier,
Earlier you said..
Quote:
It does neither, for its attitude is well stated in one of its
scriptures: "Do not put your trust in the potentates, rulers, and the
rebels of this world, for their authority passes away and comes to an
end and their works are as naught."
Knowing that they have an episcopate and clergy, I would imagine that
they would act as moral and spiritual guides, but for the most part
their own perceptions of authority rest in their experiential knowledge
of their idea of God.
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you suggest that they have Scripture, and these writings are
declared not to be Scripture. They are writings but not inspired or of
God. So do you believe that they have Scripture? Even if they have a
semblance of the OHCAC does not equate to an ecclesial community.
How would you view the Ecclesia Gnostica if they accepted practicing homsexuals in their community?
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Jan 22, '13, 3:22 pm
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Junior Member
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Join Date: March 23, 2012
Posts: 225
Religion: Gnostic Christian
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by CopticChristian
Earlier you said..
Quote:
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It does neither, for its attitude is well stated in one of its
scriptures: "Do not put your trust in the potentates, rulers, and the
rebels of this world, for their authority passes away and comes to an
end and their works are as naught."
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you suggest that they have Scripture, and these writings are
declared not to be Scripture. They are writings but not inspired or of
God. So do you believe that they have Scripture? Even if they have a
semblance of the OHCAC does not equate to an ecclesial community. |
You do realise, don't you, that that quote actually comes from one
of the Psalms? Or has the OHCAC rejected that book as scripture?
__________________
"There
is neither Jew nor Greek: there is neither bond nor free: there is
neither male nor female. For you are all one in Christ Jesus." -Galatians 3:28
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Jan 22, '13, 3:26 pm
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Trial Membership
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Join Date: January 3, 2013
Posts: 9
Religion: Catholic
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Re: Church "authority"
I was simply citing their perspective of authority from the perspective of their catechism.
Regarding their episcopate, they seem to either have or believe they
have apostolic succession that exists in the same continuity as our own
and that their bishops and clergy function in a similar role as ours.
Until their succession is proven or disproven, I'm willing to take them
at their word as this type of thing is not unprecedented.
They do have scripture of their own, to deny that would be a gross
misunderstanding however the Church has decided in her wisdom not to
count those particular scriptures amongst the canon as formulated in
canon 825 of the Code "INSTRUMENTS OF SOCIAL COMMUNICATION AND BOOKS IN
PARTICULAR " which states:
"Books of the sacred scriptures cannot be published unless the Apostolic
See or the conference of bishops has approved them. For the publication
of their translations into the vernacular, it is also required that
they be approved by the same authority and provided with necessary and
sufficient annotations."
Their scripture may not be sacred to us or have the same meaning,
however from a scholarly perspective, that doesn't change the fact that
it is still scripture - it's just not ours. I personally have a deep
interest in Biblical scholarship and find early apocryphal and
pseudoepigraphica interesting for what it tells us of the early
Christian communities.
As for having members of their community who may be lesbian or gay, I
don't see anything particularly wrong with that - it doesn't infringe on
me and my wife or child's rights or liberties and of our lesbian and
gay friends, I think they're great people and deserving of respect.
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Mar 5, '13, 3:18 pm
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Trial Membership
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Join Date: March 5, 2013
Posts: 3
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chevalier IX
I was simply citing their perspective of authority from the perspective of their catechism.
Regarding their episcopate, they seem to either have or believe they
have apostolic succession that exists in the same continuity as our own
and that their bishops and clergy function in a similar role as ours.
Until their succession is proven or disproven, I'm willing to take them
at their word as this type of thing is not unprecedented.
They do have scripture of their own, to deny that would be a gross
misunderstanding however the Church has decided in her wisdom not to
count those particular scriptures amongst the canon as formulated in
canon 825 of the Code "INSTRUMENTS OF SOCIAL COMMUNICATION AND BOOKS IN
PARTICULAR " which states:
"Books of the sacred scriptures cannot be published unless the Apostolic
See or the conference of bishops has approved them. For the publication
of their translations into the vernacular, it is also required that
they be approved by the same authority and provided with necessary and
sufficient annotations."
Their scripture may not be sacred to us or have the same meaning,
however from a scholarly perspective, that doesn't change the fact that
it is still scripture - it's just not ours. I personally have a deep
interest in Biblical scholarship and find early apocryphal and
pseudoepigraphica interesting for what it tells us of the early
Christian communities.
As for having members of their community who may be lesbian or gay, I
don't see anything particularly wrong with that - it doesn't infringe on
me and my wife or child's rights or liberties and of our lesbian and
gay friends, I think they're great people and deserving of respect.
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that was an interesting dialog -- a bit over my head-- but -- informative--
Do not think of yourself more highly than you ought, but rather think
of yourself with sober judgment, in accordance with the faith God has
distributed to each of you.
Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
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Mar 5, '13, 9:06 pm
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Senior Member
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Join Date: January 31, 2007
Posts: 6,023
Religion: Quaker
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Re: Church "authority"
Quote:
Originally Posted by PJM
To what degree does your church have authority to command you?
What is the source of this authority?
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As a Friend, I have placed myself under "the care of the Meeting".
I have agreed to follow the disipline of the Meeting. It is a mutual
decision Friends make to one another....however, I am bound by
conscience over and above what any Meeting may wish. When ever
differences arise between an individual Friend and the Monthly Meeting, a
"Clearness Committee" is formed to seek mutal understanding and
resolution directed by prayerful consideration of all parties.
Among Friends, "majority" does not rule...we govern ourselves by
consensus....each of us had an equal voice.....and sometimes the
minority voice among us is the one that hears God speak the
clearest.....and after much prayer, meditation, discussion it is not
unheard of for the Meeting as a whole to embrace the minority position
after a time of "Clearness".
These decisions can take months...and in some case years to come to consensus.
We share equally as each of us bears the Light Within.
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Mar 5, '13, 9:39 pm
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