A Protestant Question on John 6:63-64

A Protestant Question on John 6:63-64

Sep 29, '12, 2:52 pm

WeSeeLight Banned   Join Date: August 31, 2012 Posts: 73 Religion: Catholic

Re: A Protestant Question on John 6:63-64 Quote: Originally Posted by PJM Placed back into the context of all of John Chapter six; what is Christ Teaching here? King James Bible: 63-64 “It is the spirit that quickeneth ; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.” Protestants, in looking at John 6, appeal to the context which comes before "eat my flesh and drink my blood": 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, "I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." It seems disturbingly clear that John 6's context does not allow for a specific Eucharistic understanding. EDIT: maybe we should just see what they say for themselves: http://www.justforcatholics.org/a11.htm More importantly: http://www.justforcatholics.org/a73.htm Last edited by WeSeeLight; Sep 29, '12 at 3:04 pm.

Jim Staley The Great Deception Recognizing the Voice of the Enemy-- with patrick j miron catholic answers

Sep 26, '12, 12:09 pm

babs57 Junior Member   Join Date: July 18, 2012 Posts: 232 Religion: catholic

Re: A Protestant Question on John 6:63-64 John 6 is about two things; Jesus is God, and we have to eat His flesh and drink His blood. The diciples didn't believe Him when He told them that He came down from Heaven, (Jn 6:38), even though He had just performed a miracle. Now, they don't believe Him about His body and blood. If God can multiply loaves and fishes, why wouldn't He be able to breath life (Truly His life!) into mere bread! As Tim H. reminds us above , in Ezekial, God puts flesh and sinew onto dry bones! John wouldn't have spent the whole chapter saying that Jesus is God and wants us to eat Him, and then at the end say that His flesh profiteth nothing! If His flesh profiteth nothing, why would He have come to us in the flesh in the first place? This is a really hard one for Protestants to admit to. But it's often the clincher. Once you have real flesh and blood, you have real sacrifice. Then you need a priesthood, and all the rest follows...The Catholic Church!

#10   Sep 26, '12, 2:45 pm

Mystophilus Regular Member   Join Date: August 6, 2005 Posts: 1,510 Religion: Anglican

Re: A Protestant Question on John 6:63-64 Quote: Originally Posted by PJM Placed back into the context of all of John Chapter six; what is Christ Teaching here? DR Bible John 6:63-64 “It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that did not believe and who he was that would betray him” King James Bible: 63-64 “It is the spirit that quickeneth ; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.” It is a rejection of Jewish legalism. In v.56, Jesus instructs his disciples to drink his blood, a direct contravention of a repeated injunction in Jewish Law (Lev 3:17, 7:26, 17:12, 17:14). His disciples are shocked by this (v.61), and so he tells them in v.63 that it is not the merely physical act of the consumption of blood which was ever the issue, but rather the spiritual act of sacrificing to idols, which was the context of the Levitical proscription. See also such things as Mat 15:11, "Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man." __________________ 'Ο βιος βραχυς, 'Η τεχνη μακρη "Life [is] short, art long" - pseudo-Hippokrates Βραχυς 'ο βιος, μακρος 'ο μελλων αιων, και ολιγον το διαστημα της παρουσης ζωης "Short [is] life, long the coming age, and brief the interval of the present existence"- St Niketas Stethatos

#11   Sep 26, '12, 6:26 pm

babs57 Junior Member   Join Date: July 18, 2012 Posts: 232 Religion: catholic

Re: A Protestant Question on John 6:63-64 The Jewish prohibition against blood was due to the life of the animal being in the blood. When you drank the blood of an animal you were drinking its life. (Lev 17:14) The animals that were sacrificed were images of the pagan gods. So if you were drinking the blood of these animals you were recieving the life of those gods. Now Jesus comes along, and says he's God, and tells them to drink his blood. Pretty interesting? This is a life we want. Peter says we recieve the Divine Nature through the promises of Jesus. (2 Peter 1:3,4) Jesus says we need this to have life in us.

#12   Sep 26, '12, 11:14 pm

GraceSofia Regular Member Book Club Member   Join Date: August 15, 2009 Posts: 1,218 Religion: Catholic

Re: A Protestant Question on John 6:63-64 Quote: Originally Posted by TimothyH Review the word "Spirit" in scripture. ... Excellent post.

#13   Sep 29, '12, 12:14 pm

bogeydogg Regular Member   Join Date: August 11, 2007 Posts: 873 Religion: One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church

Re: A Protestant Question on John 6:63-64 Quote: Originally Posted by PJM Placed back into the context of all of John Chapter six; what is Christ Teaching here? DR Bible John 6:63-64 “It is the spirit that quickeneth: the flesh profiteth nothing. The words that I have spoken to you, are spirit and life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that did not believe and who he was that would betray him” King James Bible: 63-64 “It is the spirit that quickeneth ; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.” The protestant twisting of this verse that "spirit" is good and "flesh" is bad (aside from being Platonic/Gnostic) also creates a grammatical error. The assumption is that "flesh" being bad cannot be part of the Table and "spirit" being good can. The problem is that they are assuming that Jesus is talking about God's Spirit and then including His own body into the category of all "flesh". That is a silly assumption though since "spirit quickening" in the Greek is a present active participle and "flesh profits" in the Greek is a present active indicative phrase. Meaning that Spirit does something and flesh does nothing. So let us grant the protestant their assumption knowing this. If only spirit profits and not flesh then Christ's flesh cannot atone for sin. OOPS Since there is no distinction in the verse between which spirit and which flesh Christ is referring to then why not assume that the spirit of which He speaks also includes man's fallen spirit since we are assuming that "flesh" includes Christ's flesh? Then why have an atonement at all if man can save himself by his own spirit which would be like unto Christ's? OOPS No it is better, Biblical and reasonable given that Jesus has just declared Himself to be the "Bread" that, unlike the bread in the wilderness, once eaten will bring life and save from death. Thus the "flesh" spoken of would then be "your flesh" by which you cannot save yourself apart from Jesus' grace and mercy (a thoroughly Biblical teaching) and Spirit would then be hand in hand with the very bread of Jesus' Body by which men are saved. After all if Jesus says He is the manna that must be eaten for eternal life and flesh profits nothing (meaning the same flesh) then Jesus has just contradicted Himself and thus proven that He is not God. OOPS God bless __________________ Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness.

#14   Sep 29, '12, 2:52 pm

WeSeeLight Banned   Join Date: August 31, 2012 Posts: 73 Religion: Catholic

Re: A Protestant Question on John 6:63-64 Quote: Originally Posted by PJM Placed back into the context of all of John Chapter six; what is Christ Teaching here? King James Bible: 63-64 “It is the spirit that quickeneth ; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.” Protestants, in looking at John 6, appeal to the context which comes before "eat my flesh and drink my blood": 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, "I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst." 6:40 "And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." 6:47 "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." It seems disturbingly clear that John 6's context does not allow for a specific Eucharistic understanding. EDIT: maybe we should just see what they say for themselves: http://www.justforcatholics.org/a11.htm More importantly: http://www.justforcatholics.org/a73.htm Last edited by WeSeeLight; Sep 29, '12 at 3:04 pm.

#15   Sep 29, '12, 3:19 pm

PJM Senior Member   Join Date: August 31, 2008 Posts: 8,580 Religion: Informed, practicing RomanCatholic

Re: A Protestant Question on John 6:63-64 Quote: =jakael02;9821743]noticed jesus did not say "my flesh profits nothing" but "the flesh profits nothing". A big difference. excellent point; thank you,      __________________ PJM     Upload Guide Jim Staley The Great Deception Recognizing the Voice of the Enemy YHVH JIM STALEY YOU ARE A MIRACLE ITSELF......I STUMBLED AND STOOD UP, WITH HEAD UP..... · 1:03 Suv Ideas by ToyotaUSA 424,024 views Ad 2:25 Nearly 5 year old girl does Classical Ballet - Operaticby belindawFeatured 1,916,297 1:20:15 Jim Staley - The Great Deception (part 2)by PassionForTruthVideo 6,563 views 50:06 Top 10 Most Misunderstood NT Verses - Jim Staleyby IGotThatJesusFire 4,498 views 1:03:00 Jim Staley - The End of the Age Part 5 - The Afterlifeby PassionForTruthVideo 8,582 views 3:02 Jim Staley - The Great Deception Trailerby PassionForTruthVideo 3,934 views 46 videos God Passionby TheFaceintheclouds 1:08:39 Jim Staley - Questions and Answersby PassionForTruthVideo 5,826 views 1:17:38 Jim Staley- Feast of First Fruitsby PassionForTruthVideo 8,283 views 1:30:44 Jim Staley - Law Vs Love - Is it really Law OR Grace? (Audio)by PassionForTruthVideo 12,574 views 4:49 Orthodox Rabbi Reveals Name of Messiah "JESUS","Yehoshua" or "Yeshua"(Hebrew)by amy2x 987,363 views 1:25:34 Jim Staley - God's Prophetic Calendar - Yom Teruah (Feast of Trumpets)by PassionForTruthVideo 12,381 views 1:05:31 Jim Staley - To Eat or Not To Eat (Part 2) - "Does God care about what we eat?"by PassionForTruthVideo 6,813 views 1:40:05 Jim Staley - The End of the Age Part 4 - The Raptureby PassionForTruthVideo 8,222 views 1:09:55 Bad Arguments Against Christianity - Greg Kouklby rfvidz 6,666 views 1:45:08 Jim Staley - Understanding Romans - Part 1by PassionForTruthVideo 10,114 views 1:16:36 Jim Staley - Genesis 23 Becoming the Bride - PFT Fellowship 10-30-10by PassionForTruthVideo 4,457 views 52:30 Who Is The Bride of Christ (Part 1) - Passion For Truth Ministriesby PassionForTruthVideo 4,493 views 4:26 Don't Tell People You Will Pray For Them!- February 22nd, 2013by PassionForTruthVideo 2,227 views 1:38:23 Jim Staley - The End of the Age Part 3- Understanding Prophecyby PassionForTruthVideo 14,271 views 1:28:41 Kathryn Kuhlman ORU Mabee Center 1974 1by word3out 36,327 views 1:40:43 Jim Staley - The End of the Age Part 4- The Raptureby PassionForTruthVideo 18,060 views About Press & Blogs Copyright Creators & Partners Advertising Developers Terms Privacy Safety Send feedback Try something new!