Re: No Salvation Outside the Church--i thought papal infallibility was not a "law" until 1869

MJCatholic  Trial Membership   Join Date: May 2, 2013 Posts: 20 Religion: Catholic

Re: No Salvation Outside the Church I am a Roman Catholic, and as one, I must accept the doctrine of papal infallibility, however, I am as of yet unable to reconcile the old teaching with the new, and I am hoping that perhaps someone who has studied this dilemma and resolved it will provide a more reasonable explanation than that in essence one must assent to the interpretation of the Magesterium. Once again, our faith is a reasonable one. There is no doubt that the newer interpretation is saying something entirely different from the old. We are reading English, not trying to interpret a teaching in tongues! I am hoping that perhaps the contradictory statements seen in their full context somehow leave room for the new interpretation. As in my previous example regarding the doctrine forbidding women priests. The Church has infallibly declared through the ages that women may never be ordained to the priesthood under any circumstances. With the same "reasoning", the Church can later infallibly proclaims that women may be ordained. This reversal might be justified as a "development of doctrine" or a "clarification" that there has always been a prohibition against women being ordained as priests, but they may be ordained as priestesses with full authority to do all that priests do. The faithful must accept that the teaching has not changed. The Church never has and never will ordain women priests....just priestesses. JMJ By the way, be careful to copy your posts before pressing the button. Two of mine disappeared! Last edited by JMJCatholic; Yesterday at 2:30 pm.

#32       Yesterday, 2:33 pm

ConstantineTG  Senior Member   Join Date: August 5, 2010 Location: In the true East, in the true Faith Posts: 16,198 Religion: ☦ Orthodox Christian ☦

Re: No Salvation Outside the Church Quote: Originally Posted by JMJCatholic  I am a Roman Catholic, and as one, I must accept the doctrine of papal infallibility, however, I am as of yet unable to reconcile the old teaching with the new, and I am hoping that perhaps someone who has studied this dilemma and resolved it will provide a more reasonable explanation than that in essence one must assent to the interpretation of the Magesterium. Once again, our faith is a reasonable one. There is no doubt that the newer interpretation is saying something entirely different from the old. We are reading English, not trying to interpret a teaching in tongues! I am hoping that perhaps the contradictory statements seen in their full context somehow leave room for the new interpretation. As in my previous example regarding the doctrine forbidding women priests. The Church has infallibly declared through the ages that women may never be ordained to the priesthood under any circumstances. With the same "reasoning", the Church can later infallibly proclaims that women may be ordained. This reversal might be justified as a "development of doctrine" or a "clarification" that there has never been a prohibition against women being ordained as priests, but they may be ordained as priestesses with full authority to do all that priests do. The faithful must accept that the teaching has not changed. The Church never has and never will ordain women priests....just priestesses. JMJ By the way, be careful to copy your posts before pressing the button. Two of mine disappeared! In Orthodoxy it is different. We always make sure that everything is consistent from Day 1 until today. In the issue of women priests, there is no doctrinal teaching that tells us that women cannot become priests. None in the New Testament, none in the Church Father. However, with Orthodoxy, the fact that it has never been done is a good enough reason for us not to do it ever. We don't need doctrinal development. Because for us to ordain women we also need to justify that it is the orthodox faith, that it is the same belief that the Church Fathers had. Given that no Church Father has ever ordained a woman to the presbyterate, we can't come up with a reason or justification to change that today. We don't need to say its doctrine, likely it is not. But we have no justification either to do it. __________________ ☦ The Christian is the one who wherever he or she looks, everywhere sees Christ and rejoices in him. We are to go out, then, from the Liturgy and see Christ everywhere. --Fr. Alexander Schmemann

#33       Yesterday, 2:50 pm

JMJCatholic  Trial Membership   Join Date: May 2, 2013 Posts: 20 Religion: Catholic

Re: No Salvation Outside the Church Thank you, Constantine. That there is unity and continuity of tradition in the Orthodox Church is evidence of the working of the Holy Spirit. We do not always see this even in the Catholic Church where all are under the same authority, the Pope. God willing, one day, the Catholics and the Orthodox will be once again in communion. Perhaps, an "re-interpretation" of issues of difference can be satisfactory to all. JMJ

#34       Yesterday, 3:50 pm

Mike SoCal  New Member   Join Date: December 13, 2012 Posts: 37 Religion: Baptist

Re: No Salvation Outside the Church The RCC doesn't control who is saved. Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

#35       Yesterday, 4:12 pm

Nicea325  Regular Member   Join Date: March 16, 2010 Posts: 5,600 Religion: Catholic

Re: No Salvation Outside the Church Quote: Originally Posted by Mike SoCal  The RCC doesn't control who is saved. Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. That is not what the RCC teaches or is proclaiming.

#36       Yesterday, 4:27 pm

Vico  Regular Member   Join Date: November 27, 2008 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 5,838 Religion: Catholic

Re: No Salvation Outside the Church Quote: Originally Posted by JMJCatholic  I am a Roman Catholic, and as one, I must accept the doctrine of papal infallibility, however, I am as of yet unable to reconcile the old teaching with the new, and I am hoping that perhaps someone who has studied this dilemma and resolved it will provide a more reasonable explanation than that in essence one must assent to the interpretation of the Magesterium. Once again, our faith is a reasonable one. There is no doubt that the newer interpretation is saying something entirely different from the old. We are reading English, not trying to interpret a teaching in tongues! I am hoping that perhaps the contradictory statements seen in their full context somehow leave room for the new interpretation. As in my previous example regarding the doctrine forbidding women priests. The Church has infallibly declared through the ages that women may never be ordained to the priesthood under any circumstances. With the same "reasoning", the Church can later infallibly proclaims that women may be ordained. This reversal might be justified as a "development of doctrine" or a "clarification" that there has always been a prohibition against women being ordained as priests, but they may be ordained as priestesses with full authority to do all that priests do. The faithful must accept that the teaching has not changed. The Church never has and never will ordain women priests....just priestesses. JMJ By the way, be careful to copy your posts before pressing the button. Two of mine disappeared! On this issue I believe the Church may be able to give Holy Orders to women someday to the deaconate. See Canon 1009: "Those who are constituted in the order of the episcopate or the presbyterate receive the mission and capacity to act in the person of Christ the Head, whereas deacons are empowered to serve the People of God in the ministries of the liturgy, the word and charity". Read post #22 for Trent on salvation through desire. __________________

#37       Yesterday, 4:34 pm

ConstantineTG  Senior Member   Join Date: August 5, 2010 Location: In the true East, in the true Faith Posts: 16,198 Religion: ☦ Orthodox Christian ☦

Re: No Salvation Outside the Church Quote: Originally Posted by Vico  On this issue I believe the Church may be able to give Holy Orders to women someday to the deaconate. See Canon 1009: "Those who are constituted in the order of the episcopate or the presbyterate receive the mission and capacity to act in the person of Christ the Head, whereas deacons are empowered to serve the People of God in the ministries of the liturgy, the word and charity". Read post #22 for Trent on salvation through desire. I wish they won't. Some in the Orthodox Church believe that the deaconess should be restored today. I disagree. The timing is wrong, and there is no good reason to other than satisfying the liberal feminist agenda. Also, a notable Orthodox priest raised the issue that deaconesses are not at par with deacons. He cites the ancient canons which gives different penalties to deacons, who are lumped together with clergy, from deaconesses, who are lumped together with the laity. Although the Rite of Ordination is the same, an interpretation of the canons based on the intent of the Fathers show that deacons and deaconesses were not equal. __________________ ☦ The Christian is the one who wherever he or she looks, everywhere sees Christ and rejoices in him. We are to go out, then, from the Liturgy and see Christ everywhere. --Fr. Alexander Schmemann

#38       Yesterday, 4:39 pm

Vico  Regular Member   Join Date: November 27, 2008 Location: U.S.A. Posts: 5,838 Religion: Catholic

Re: No Salvation Outside the Church Quote: Originally Posted by ConstantineTG  I wish they won't. Some in the Orthodox Church believe that the deaconess should be restored today. I disagree. The timing is wrong, and there is no good reason to other than satisfying the liberal feminist agenda. Also, a notable Orthodox priest raised the issue that deaconesses are not at par with deacons. He cites the ancient canons which gives different penalties to deacons, who are lumped together with clergy, from deaconesses, who are lumped together with the laity. Although the Rite of Ordination is the same, an interpretation of the canons based on the intent of the Fathers show that deacons and deaconesses were not equal. Yet, today, at least in the Latin Catholic Church, one sees women as altar servers and readers and extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist. Those are liturgical functions. __________________

#39       Yesterday, 4:44 pm

ConstantineTG  Senior Member   Join Date: August 5, 2010 Location: In the true East, in the true Faith Posts: 16,198 Religion: ☦ Orthodox Christian ☦

Re: No Salvation Outside the Church Quote: Originally Posted by Vico  Yet, today, at least in the Latin Catholic Church, one sees women as altar servers and readers and extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist. Those are liturgical functions. Well at least Liturgical functions that are served by the lay people. A deaconess will mean they can read the Gospel and touch the Sacred Vessels (in the Byzantine Rite, I know in the RC lay servers do this all the time). __________________ ☦ The Christian is the one who wherever he or she looks, everywhere sees Christ and rejoices in him. We are to go out, then, from the Liturgy and see Christ everywhere. --Fr. Alexander Schmemann

#40       Today, 10:40 am

concretecamper  New Member   Join Date: March 2, 2013 Posts: 57 Religion: Catholic

This topic has troubled me for years. I too cannot get my heart around "extra ecclesium nullas salus". I've read what popes have declared and I have also listened to more modern interpretations. I will leave it to God. However, I want to advance the following perspective. If any christian religion or private devotion of Christ is an acceptable pathway to salvation, then what is the purpose of the Catholic Church? Is the purpose to just get the ball rolling? Then why be catholic? Why be one? Why convert people for the reason of bringing the fullness of faith to them if it does not matter one lick. Who cares if one has the fullness of faith if it does not matter. I know I am not capable of making any sort of judgment on this. Has ecumenism blinded us? What is the purpose of ecumenism? Is it merely to talk? Why talk about our differences if they do not matter in the end of the day? My head hurts thinking about this.....I guess we will find out some day. Posted from Catholic.com App for Android

#41       Today, 10:54 am

benjohnson  Regular Member   Join Date: May 16, 2012 Location: Seattle (Where we need the Gospel) Posts: 1,361 Religion: Lutheran - LC-MS

Re: No Salvation Outside the Church Quote: Originally Posted by concretecamper  This topic has troubled me for years. I too cannot get my heart around "extra ecclesium nullas salus". From the Lutheran perspective, we too claim that you need to be in our church to normally hear the Gospel and receive the Sacraments. If we didn't claim this, then what would be the point of continuing to exist? Now, just because we say we're the correct church, this does not bind God. Just as we trust in God's tender love for those infants who died unbaptized, so we take joy in his love for all. Theologians from our church have remarked that being in God's 'one church' is a joy but perhaps a burden - for when we come before Him, we can't plead ignorance. I've heard similar warnings from Catholics, Anglicans and Orthodox. When I begin to worry about such things and start to become strident, for myself, I have to remind myself that the Gospel is a comfort. It's the Law that condemns us, but the Gospel is pure Love unbound.

#42       Today, 11:00 am

Tomster  Regular Member   Join Date: October 25, 2006 Posts: 4,151 Religion: Traditional Roman Catholic

Re: No Salvation Outside the Church Quote: Originally Posted by Mike SoCal  The RCC doesn't control who is saved. Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God— 9 not because of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. The are some Protestant denoms who will tell you "Once Saved, Always Saved". Where they come up with that I'll leave to you.

#43       Today, 11:04 am

catanswer  Trial Membership   Join Date: April 23, 2013 Posts: 1 Religion: catholic

Re: No Salvation Outside the Church Quote: Originally Posted by EIF5A  Was the pope exercising papal infallibility? What exactly is the "merits of Christ", as in is it something beyond Incarnation of God, suffering/death on the Cross, and resurrection? i thought papal infallibility was not a "law" until 1869 During his pontificate, he convened the First Vatican Council in 1869, which decreed papal infallibility. The Pope defined the dogma of the Immaculate ... but you are right the counsal of trent 1551-- declared everyone not baptised in the catholic way, ie sacrement--- out side the church or body of christ