working4christ2

FireDragon76 · Apr 13, '13, 6:04 am

This debate is rehashing Reformation-era polemics. There are joint-statements on justification between Catholics and Lutherans. Methodists have also signed onto those statements. I know many Episcopalians and Anglicans who would also deny there is any substantial, real difference between what Rome teaches and what they teach in the area of justification. The issue is more about emphasis.

rfournier103 · #17 Apr 13, '13, 7:03 am

If one looks at "faith alone" in it's literal sense, than there really is NO basis for it in Scripture. In fact, "faith alone" does not appear in the Bible al all, does it?

Let us look at Rev. 22:11-12... "Let the wicked still act wickedly, and the filthy still be filthy. The righteous must still do right, and the holy still be holy. Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds."

Italics and bold are mine.

If we are to be saved by faith; does not our faith in Jesus Christ mean that we must live here on earth as He has commanded us? If all we need is faith alone to be saved, what need have we of ministers, priests, prayer, going to church, the Bible, baptism, and all the other Sacraments?

My faith in Jesus Christ means that not only do I believe in Him (ie: Son of God, died for us, rose again), but that I must put His teachings into practice.

I think many Christians may not understand what "faith" in Christ really means.

PJM · #18 Apr 13, '13, 7:28 am

Quote:

=Publisher;10615238]Agreed friend. Good works do not save us....we do good works becuase we are saved. "It is not I that lives, but Christ that lives within me." Good works are part of WHO we are, good works do not make us WHO we are....we become new creatures in Christ by grace thru faith in Him and Him alone.

Intellectual statements of "belief" with no faith are just statements and mean nothing. But a heart that truly turns to Christ in faith is changed...born again....we "put on Christ"....we do good works because that is NOW who we are....good works are a part of us now....good works are the "proof" that our faith in the work of Christ is authentic and not just "intellectual ascent"....there is no such thing as 'cheap faith"....just like there is no such thing as "cheap grace'....they may be concepts....but because they are "cheap" they mean nothing

It is by grace thru faith alone which saves us.....good works are the product of who we are....without them there is no real faith..

Really

Your comments on works is RIGHT ON

Faith even through grace BY ITSELF CANNOT BE.

Biblical supported conditions/positions for meriting ones possible eternal Salvation.

Believing in God, being baptized, being a loyal member of the Catholic Church , loving God, loving our neighbor, keeping the Ten Commandments receiving the sacraments, especially Holy Communion and Confession, praying and doing good works and dying in a state of grace.”

And yes; given the space I can prove this.

**JonNC** · #19 Apr 13, '13, 8:12 am

Quote:

=rfournier103;10616688]If one looks at "faith alone" in it's literal sense, than there really is NO basis for it in Scripture. In fact, "faith alone" does not appear in the Bible al all, does it?

Its "literal sense" is the sense that, for Lutherans, our confessions describe it, not what others do, be they Catholic or non-Catholic.

Quote:

Let us look at Rev. 22:11-12... "Let the wicked still act wickedly, and the filthy still be filthy. The righteous must still do right, and the holy still be holy. Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds."

No Lutheran would disagree.

Quote:

If we are to be saved by faith; does not our faith in Jesus Christ mean that we must live here on earth as He has commanded us? If all we need is faith alone to be saved, what need have we of ministers, priests, prayer, going to church, the Bible, baptism, and all the other Sacraments?

This is what I mean by the misunderstanding of faith alone. By grace through faith is the way we access justification. All of those things you mentioned are the way the Spirit helps us to maintain our faith, bring us forgiveness of sins, etc. They are all necessary for the regenerate.

Quote:

My faith in Jesus Christ means that not only do I believe in Him (ie: Son of God, died for us, rose again), but that I must put His teachings into practice.

Agreed.

Quote:

I think many Christians may not understand what "faith" in Christ really means.

Agreed again.
Luther - "There is no justification without sanctification, no forgiveness without renewal of life, no real faith from which the fruits of new obedience do not grow."

Jon

FireDragon76 · #20 Apr 13, '13, 8:23 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJM

Really

Believing in God, being baptized, being a loyal member of the Catholic Church , loving God, loving our neighbor, keeping the Ten Commandments receiving the sacraments, especially Holy Communion and Confession, praying and doing good works and dying in a state of grace.”

And yes; given the space I can prove this.

All good advice... but the Protestant perspective is this: the reality is, we are sinners, we inevitably fall short due to what we are. Then what is the "good news"? The good news is that Christ died for our sins and rose for our justification because God loves us despite our sins. He has high standards but he's always merciful. It is not about what we must do to be saved, but what God has done for us in Christ. The works we do that mean anything must be done in love as a result of God first giving us that means to truly be free. Otherwise the Christian religion can just become a pharasaical legalism where people go through the motions out of fear or obedience, but inwardly they are not really changed., they are still the same selfish creatures they always were. We are used to making idols of religiosity, our own piousness and self-justification, as rationalizations for our fundamentally selfish, unloving habits, and Jesus point throughout the Gospels is that our piety is just not good enough for God and our selfishness just will not do.

Publisher · #21 Apr 13, '13, 9:16 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJM

Really

Your comments on works is RIGHT ON

Faith even through grace BY ITSELF CANNOT BE.

Biblical supported conditions/positions for meriting ones possible eternal Salvation.

Believing in God, being baptized, being a loyal member of the Catholic Church , loving God, loving our neighbor, keeping the Ten Commandments receiving the sacraments, especially Holy Communion and Confession, praying and doing good works and dying in a state of grace.”

And yes; given the space I can prove this.

Faith thru grace IS ALL THERE TRULY IS. Faith thru grace IS NOT BY ITSELF....It HAS GRACE BEHIND IT....Amazing Grace how sweet the sound.....Grace makes all the difference.....grace and faith is all that matters.....no matter what you believe....faith and grace is the ONLY way that God is met and sins are forgiven....and we are made new creations.....simple faith in God's astounding grace MAKES all the differnce in the world.

Kmfioc · #22 Apr 13, '13, 9:45 pm

"Also, to me, the notion of PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR gives an implication that means that OUR PERSONAL interpretation of the bible is truly all that matters. Are you understanding the distinction and the inherent danger of this subtle difference?"

CatholicKnight,

This is a great post and shed some light on a few very important things for me. I feel you are 100% right on about Christ being the final judge.

However, I quoted this part of your out because I wanted a little further clarification. This part of the post talks about sola scripture. Which is the whole reason I am looking for the proper authority to live the proper Christian life. But I still cannot make the distinction in what protestants and Catholics believe differently on faith alone vs faith plus works. In a practical sense, they are basically saying the same thing when it all comes down to it. Honestly, I feel like faith alone is a horrible term that Luther and Protestants use to explain the same beliefs as Catholics that many Protestants adhere to. I can't understand why this is so much of a point of division.

Sola scripture on the other hand, which I feelyou alluded to in the quoted portion of the text is obviously a point of division between the two. There must be something I am missing because many intelligent people are really passiontpate about this issue which is obvious from the multiple post on this subject and the information I have found discussing it. But it seems to me a argument about nothing except using different terminology for the same thing.

Anyways, I really appreciate your post because it gave me some real insite on Gods judgement and the importance of us not to be judgemental of those who have differing beliefs. God Bless you.

CatholicKnight3 · #23 Apr 14, '13, 4:36 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmfioc

"Also, to me, the notion of PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR gives an implication that means that OUR PERSONAL interpretation of the bible is truly all that matters. Are you understanding the distinction and the inherent danger of this subtle difference?"

CatholicKnight,

This is a great post and shed some light on a few very important things for me. I feel you are 100% right on about Christ being the final judge.

However, I quoted this part of your out because I wanted a little further clarification. This part of the post talks about sola scripture. Which is the whole reason I am looking for the proper authority to live the proper Christian life. But I still cannot make the distinction in what protestants and Catholics believe differently on faith alone vs faith plus works. In a practical sense, they are basically saying the same thing when it all comes down to it. Honestly, I feel like faith alone is a horrible term that Luther and Protestants use to explain the same beliefs as Catholics that many Protestants adhere to. I can't understand why this is so much of a point of division.

Sola scripture on the other hand, which I feelyou alluded to in the quoted portion of the text is obviously a point of division between the two. There must be something I am missing because many intelligent people are really passiontpate about this issue which is obvious from the multiple post on this subject and the information I have found discussing it. But it seems to me a argument about nothing except using different terminology for the same thing.

Anyways, I really appreciate your post because it gave me some real insite on Gods judgement and the importance of us not to be judgemental of those who have differing beliefs. God Bless you.

The difference between faith and works can be semantics. However, in the case of protestants, it is an excuse to reject the church as the pillar of truth. Instead, they say the bible (their interpretation) is the final authority.

So, when the Catholic Church sets doctrine, they feel no obligation what so ever to follow it. In fact, they believe it is a sin to follow anything the church says.

There are many examples, and they see the Church as the whore of Babylon. Mainly due to what they perceive as idolatry when the the Church "prays to saints," or they see the Eucharist celebration as "re-crucifying Christ." They tend to hold it against the Church and equate these "traditions" as human inventions. They use Christ's words to justify this when Christ spoke to the Jews and their false traditions that tied burdens on people's backs.

The way Catholics see this is Paul actually writes that we much HOLD FAST to the traditions just as WE have passed them on. Logic says the early Christians and Christians for at least the first 1300 or 1400 years did not even have a bible to refer to. The canon was not set until at least the end of the 4th century. The average person (typical Christian) for 1500 years did not even know how to read or write. The poor, were not allowed to be educated. Many of these things are explained away that the Church deliberately kept the word from the lay people in order to control the masses.

Well, there was certainly an inherent danger (which has proved to be very true) with allowing everyone to own their own bible and take from it what ever they want. This has been (imo) a real weapon for the devil to use to divide the church. To splinter it into thousands of pieces. To make it so divided that it is very difficult to not fall into scrupulosity. Something I suffer from greatly through out my life. It is hard enough to be faithful to one faith, let alone not even knowing if that faith is even the true one to begin with.

For me there has to be authority here on earth. If a sola scirptura Christian was truly following the scripture, then they would see where in 1 Timothy 3:15 says the Church is the pillar of the truth.

For those Christians that have problems with saints like Mary being the mother of ALL Christians, and want to know where that is backed up in the SCRIPTURE, I am going to say that Christ said from the cross, to BEHOLD YOUR Mother. Not behold MY mother, but YOUR mother to John (disciple whom HE loved.) I have been told by a protestant that verse does not mean that it refers to US as Christians but to John. Not US. To that, I find curious. I had just asked that protestant if he thought if everything that Christ said as recorded in the gospels was for an eternal purpose? He just said yes. So, when he suggested that one of the last things said from the cross was for a temporal purpose, then that means everything else Jesus said according to the gospels was for eternal purpose, with the exception of that? I asked, how do you get to the place where you can actually claim that?

Continued...................

CatholicKnight3 · #24 Apr 14, '13, 5:01 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kmfioc

"Also, to me, the notion of PERSONAL LORD AND SAVIOR gives an implication that means that OUR PERSONAL interpretation of the bible is truly all that matters. Are you understanding the distinction and the inherent danger of this subtle difference?"

CatholicKnight,

This is a great post and shed some light on a few very important things for me. I feel you are 100% right on about Christ being the final judge.

However, I quoted this part of your out because I wanted a little further clarification. This part of the post talks about sola scripture. Which is the whole reason I am looking for the proper authority to live the proper Christian life. But I still cannot make the distinction in what protestants and Catholics believe differently on faith alone vs faith plus works. In a practical sense, they are basically saying the same thing when it all comes down to it. Honestly, I feel like faith alone is a horrible term that Luther and Protestants use to explain the same beliefs as Catholics that many Protestants adhere to. I can't understand why this is so much of a point of division.

Sola scripture on the other hand, which I feelyou alluded to in the quoted portion of the text is obviously a point of division between the two. There must be something I am missing because many intelligent people are really passiontpate about this issue which is obvious from the multiple post on this subject and the information I have found discussing it. But it seems to me a argument about nothing except using different terminology for the same thing.

Anyways, I really appreciate your post because it gave me some real insite on Gods judgement and the importance of us not to be judgemental of those who have differing beliefs. God Bless you.

So, when Christ says to BEHOLD YOUR MOTHER from the cross. He then looked up and said EVERYTHING WAS FINISHED. Read the gospel of John to get perspective.

So is there anything more to show that it is right to not just BEHOLD OUR MOTHER, but it is also GOOD to ask her to pray for us. In Revelation chapter 12, it clearly descirbes the woman that gave birth to the male CHILD that was caught up to the throne of God and sits at HIS RIGHT HAND. Well, it is hard to not see who that woman is that was crowned with 12 stars. Yes, protestants will say that refers to Israel, not Mary.

Well, a few things about that. One, at Revelation 12:17, it says, "The devil went off to wage war with the res of her offspring. All those who bear witness to Christ, and keep his commandments." Well, when we combine that verse with what Christ said from the cross to the disciple that was bearing witness and keeping his commandments in John, we can see how those words are indeed eternal. We can also see why John was at the foot of the cross in the first place. From what I gather, John was the only disciple of the 12 to take the first EUCHARIST in grace. Why? Cause he was the only one to acknowledge his unworthiness when he leaned on Jesus's chest and asked him, Is it I when Christ said one of them was going to betray Him. That was not a small thing that happened between Jesus and John. In fact, later in Johns gospel, Peter asks Jesus about the disciple that reclined at His chest.

Look at the other disciples during the supper. When Christ said one of you will betray, they slowly said TO THEMSELVES, SURELY NOT I. Boasting inside. Peter during the last supper, openly declared that he would never betray. He openly exalted himself. So, it was at those words that Peter was then DESTINED to deny Christ OPENLY. The other disciples? Well, there is no account of them being at the cross. What does that mean? It means, that they were also afraid to be WITH Christ. They denied him INWARDLY as they exalted themselves INWARDLY.

John, the only one of the 12 to acknowledge and be humble, was the only one to have the grace to be there at the cross. Therefore, since he walked in the spirit, was led to the foot. Right where the Holy Spirit leads us all when he walk in faith. Therefore, those words become eternal. It also illustrates the Trinity when Christ comforted his mother, even in his worst suffering and revealed to her that she was the mother of all his faithful. Not just Christ, cause even though He is dying, he is also living. With in his beloved disciple. The Holy Spirit.

This here is an example of the words being alive. Not just words printed on pages or carved in stone.

The living word is just that. Living.

It did not END with the last book of the bible. The Holy Spirit still inspires people as HE inspired people.

PJM · #25 Apr 14, '13, 7:44 am

Quote:

=rfournier103;10616688]If one looks at "faith alone" in it's literal sense, than there really is NO basis for it in Scripture. In fact, "faith alone" does not appear in the Bible al all, does it?

Let us look at Rev. 22:11-12... "Let the wicked still act wickedly, and the filthy still be filthy. The righteous must still do right, and the holy still be holy. Behold, I am coming soon. I bring with me the recompense I will give to each according to his deeds."

Italics and bold are mine.

If we are to be saved by faith; does not our faith in Jesus Christ mean that we must live here on earth as He has commanded us? If all we need is faith alone to be saved, what need have we of ministers, priests, prayer, going to church, the Bible, baptism, and all the other Sacraments?

My faith in Jesus Christ means that not only do I believe in Him (ie: Son of God, died for us, rose again), but that I must put His teachings into practice.

I think many Christians may not understand what "faith" in Christ really means.

I'm a 'Pat's fan too" but check this oit:

Douay Bible and the King James Bible

James 2:24
DR B: 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

New King James Version (NKJV)
24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only

fredplont · #26 Today, 10:05 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by PJM

Dear frewind in Christ,

Perhaps your prior churches teacing is not on Faith Alone; [even faith through grace alone], but htis does remain the primary philosophy of MANY, including Fundementalist-christians.

While your seeking a new church, please consider these facts [biblically provable too]

Because there is only one TRUE God

Logically there can be ONLY One True set of Faith beliefs by this One God

And Christ Founded only One chuurch with its One SET of Faith beliefs.

Truth is and must be singular per defined item

Certainly Jesus did not wait for The Great Eastern Schism; King Henry VIII or Martin Luther to make HIS Teachings; HIS One True and COMPLETE Faith known

PRAY MUCH my friend. The HS has blessed you and lead you to CAF for a specific reason. Amen.

well friend-- if there is no change in your life while attending any particular "religious church"
it is a clue that that problem is either the religious organization or the problem is you--

now i have seen many people have life changing experiences with in the warm and fuzzy - by christ alone message-- http://youtu.be/HxQkdD0pu_Y

say this heart felt prayer-- and the holy spirit will change you -- actually can work--

and religious people some time get mad -- because it not in their theology--

when looking at all these catholic and christian forums-- i just shak my hear-- when i recognize all these mature trolls

PJM · #27 Today, 11:41 am

Quote:

=fredplont;10629308]well friend-- if there is no change in your life while attending any particular "religious church"
it is a clue that that problem is either the religious organization or the problem is you--

now i have seen many people have life changing experiences with in the warm and fuzzy - by christ alone message-- http://youtu.be/HxQkdD0pu_Y

say this heart felt prayer-- and the holy spirit will change you -- actually can work--

and religious people some time get mad -- because it not in their theology--

when looking at all these catholic and christian forums-- i just shak my hear-- when i recognize all these mature trolls

Hi Fred

God can do any good thing! Amen!

That said Satan too, as the "father of lies", has enormouss powers of Persuasion.

Be careful

working4christ2

Tuesday, April 16, 2013

Default Re: Faith alone? Really? patrick j miron -- That said Satan too, as the "father of lies", has enormouss powers of Persuasion.

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